Sunday, March 28, 2010

Bullfrog Power or Bull#%@& Scam

Well friends, as you know I try to keep up on "current" affairs,lately there has been an ad running on cknw, it`s from a company called Bullfrog Power, I not sure what their "scheme" is but, what they are advertising is this......:Be happy to pay more for power,we at Bullfrog if you pay extra money for power we will insert clean "green" power into the grid:.....Well it goes something like that,let`s have a little discussion about this proposal.

Now folks, by no means am I rocket scientist but, come on, where I live out in the sticks, is it even possible to remove my dirty BC Hydro heritage dam power from my line, just how would that work?

Just how would they insert green power into the line? Would they chase my BC Hydro power away and direct cleaner green power to my home, I don`t think so, and of course there is that other little matter, BC Hydro is a net exporter of power, BC Hydro exports power during the primetime evening hours and imports a little bit of power from Alberta in the wee late hours of night when electrical demand is extremely low and so is the price,dirt cheap late night power,the reason BC Hydro does this is for money, we save our heritage dam power for when demand is heavy and the price is higher, it`s a win win situation, BC Hydro makes money, and Alberta doesn`t waste their power generation,because Alberta can`t shut off their natural gas powered generating stations,so Alberta makes a little bit of money and their power isn`t wasted, this set-up between BC Hydro and Alberta has served us well for decades.

So I am still trying to figure out what Bull#%$@ power is all about, are they saying they will tell Alberta to reduce the little pulse of power they are sending us and they will inject an equal amount of expensive greener power? Is that even possible, look friends,in the middle of the night the only thing I have running is a clock radio and a few appliance displays like the microwave oven or my DVD clock, so perhaps one of you faithful readers can explain how Bullfrog power will accomplish their advertised feat?

If they inject a little more green energy into the grid,equal to the amount that I am willing to buy can they guarantee that it will find its way to my humble abode, what`s stopping the guy up the block from taking my virgin green power?

And on the flip-side, can I opt for buying dirty power only? Can I say to BC Hydro .....Hey boys, don`t send me any of your heritage dam power, direct some natural gas powered electricity from Alberta to my place,or even better, can I get some coal-fired power? Or.....

Do you know anyone burning rubber tires producing electricity, I want the cheap dirty stuff?

Well I digress, I haven`t figured out what is going on here but I have a pretty good idea...

"A sucker is born every minute"

(Read about Bullfrog power here)
And friends,here is a good read from a very astute person on where this Froggy outfit came from..
So look, you can make up your own mind, but personally speaking, I think these Bullfroggers have been licking those hallucinogenic orange frogs, oh my, how I long for the Woodstock days,but I digress again, I think I`m going to play .
The Doors ...starring Jim Morrison.
"This is the end, my only friend, the end"
The Straight Goods
Cheers-Eyes Wide Open


Anonymous said...

Interesting stuff. If BC Hydro enters into contracts with IPP's and purchases the power from run-of-river and wind farms, where does Bullfrog gets its power from? BC Hydro?

And if so, does it resell to the consumer at a higher mark-up from BC Hydro to fleece the consumer on some "green" scam?

Power lines certainly don't differentiate what energy is running through them.

Grant G said...

It`s bogus..It`s like selling tap water and calling it cleaner bottled water...Follow the links!

These flakes come from back east,as far as I know they don`t REALLY sell power,they sell that "green feeling"

While putting Green and Brown bills in their pocket!

And sorry about the late editing,I cleaned up the read,time to polish up my specs.


Hugh said...

What a crock 'o shite.

What do they do at the times of the year when the creeks with R-O-R projects have low water, and the wind is not blowing?

Ron Seftel said...

Grant, we would appreciate the opportunity to clarify a few points regarding Bullfrog Power’s role in the electricity market in BC as well as in Canada as a whole.

The wind project from which Bullfrog sources in BC, like all new renewable energy projects, requires a premium over conventional market prices for electricity in order to make it economic. In this particular case, the developers counted on getting a premium for the green power produced by the facility, over and above BC Hydro rates. As a result, Bullfrog’s contracts are financially important to renewable power developers to help support new projects such as the Bear Mountain Wind Park. As the developer has stated, “payments from voluntary consumers assist in the proliferation of green power development”.

Bullfrog Power and its customers play an important role in enabling new renewable power to be developed in Canada. Bullfrog has created both a residential and commercial market for green power in Canada by educating home owners and businesses on the environmental benefits of green power, and by providing them with a convenient and easy market mechanism for choosing green. Voluntary consumer demand can and is playing an important role in the development of new renewable power projects. Across the country, several new wind farms have been commissioned in response to the growing voluntary demand for green power. And as our customer base continues to grow, we will continue to help bring new renewable power projects online. For information on these new projects, please visit: In short, bullfrogpowered homes support renewable energy generation, and the more voluntary consumers there are, the more wind projects can be built.

With regard to how our power is delivered, Bullfrog does not pipe green electrons directly to its customers’ homes or businesses. The green power is injected onto the existing grid. This makes both environmental and economic sense, in that the environmental benefits of green power accrue at the point of generation, not the point of consumption, and to develop a separate grid infrastructure for delivery of green power would take an unnecessary environmental and economic toll. Most would agree, we believe, that greening our existing grid is the most effective way to move to a cleaner energy future.

Finally, BC imports more electricity that you might think. For a breakdown of where the electricity is imported from and the pollution that results, see our BC Emissions Calculator.

Ron Seftel
SVP, Operations
Bullfrog Power

Grant G said...

Well Mr Seftel...I don`t want to argue with you..The cat is out of the bag..Plutonic Power and other IPPs have already put it on the public record that this new power is for export to the USA.
But I digress, the only problem with BC Hydro buying power for $120 and up and your selling soft power(NON-FIRM POWER) to the USA for $50 ....Is..We lose our shirts,BC Hydro goes bankrupt,the Province goes broke....

We are a net exporter of power..Count all the sources,teck comenco,Columbia treaty power and more...Please don`t count only one source..

I have no problem with your windmill,only one thing, take it the market and sell it for what the market will bear,what the US market will bear...Don`t shove down my throat or put it on my bill...

Thanks for dropping by.


Hugh said...

Ron Seftel,

Please explain how the energy from 100+ wind and run-of-river projects in BC is more 'green' than energy from BC Hydro's own hydro projects.

Our BC Govt has mandated BC Hydro to purchase excessive amounts of energy from private power projects in BC. This will cause BC Hydro to incur trading losses. The losses will have to be made up by ratepayers.

The last thing we need in BC is more private power projects.

Anonymous said...

Psst, any juan want to buy the electricity not being used in my house wires,cheap? Its just sitting there waiting, "e" mail it to your house.

That picture of a frog above should be replaced with a large pile of Bullshit, As far as Im concerned thats what this scheme is.
Ron Seftel are you one of the persons who was involed in a environmental house idea experiment in Saskatchewan, which was shown on a CBC documentary just recently?

Henri Paul

Grant G said...

Henri Paul..Good stuff...I think you might be right.

I`ll do some snooping,you are always a class act Henri Paul.


Crankypants said...

All I can add is this sounds like some Nigerian lottery scam.

The scary part is that many not so bright types will fall for this bulls**t. Thses guys are even running ads on television.


Anonymous said...

Another example of shameless moneymaking on peoples good intentions.

exterior insulation finish systems said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

I wondered about this add like most of you did.
First question: Why should I have to pay more? Why not less? I'm tired of always having to pay "more". These additional 'fees for no service' are really making me crazy. Case in point: Recently recharged my propane tank and received the billing. Cost of propane about 83 cents per litre, then, add $10 for hazmat fee, another 10 for pipeline transportation fee, still another 10 for fuel surcharge, and finally the pst,gst,and carbon tax. Guess what...come and take the tank back, 'cause I'm outa B.C. and the propane company is 'history'. End of contract
It's all about the money folks.
I predicted some years ago that the carbon issue was not about ecology, but rather about money. all that had to be done was to convince people that 'something'was bad (choose carbon), and in order to control it we had to pay more. The "more" comes in the form of carbon taxes and carbon credits.
Next, there will be a movement to charge, for the reduction of atmospheric nitrogen. That's almost as silly as California flirting with a tax on runoff from driveways, roofs and parking lots. It's being called a tax on rainfall.
In short: Tell a big enough lie and inject a suitable amount of fear and the majority of the population will not only believe it, but convert it to the holy grail.
Of course you are aware of the chap who apparently bought millions of acres of Amazon rain forest and will sell the carbon reduction potential of the forest as carbon credits to industry....all about the money.
If one really cared, how about buying the forest, and just letting it stand unmolested, withgout charge. In this deal, there is the underlying threat that if you don't buy a piece of the forest, someone will cut it down. We wouldn't want that would we? Where's my wallet! I have to save the forest.
What's next? How about everyone gets a limited amount of carbon they can emit annually. We'll call it a personal carbon emission grant. If you want to or worse 'have to' emit more carbon, you must buy carbon credits....from some company, or even better, some government agency. I wonder how I could use that concept to my benefit? Easy. I'll form a carbon credit company then proceed south where I'll buy the credits from an aboriginal rainforest person, who lives in the southern hemisphere and uses half of his allowable annual grant because I helped to buy the forest that he can no longer burn down. I'll pay him one cent per credit and sell it back to a Canadian in January for a dollar, when their allowable carbon limit has been exceeded through having to heat a home during a northern winter.
Going green is the grail, Carbon and global warming/climate change is the 'big lie' that justifies the quest.
Give me something that I can see to be a truth, and I'll join the cause. Don't try to feed me the global warming scam or the climate change story or some other 'big lie'.
There isn't any global warming is up for grabs and climate always changes in spite of man.
But, I ramble to excess.
I have a new objective today. I'm going out to increase my carbon footprint because it's my way of revolting.

snakejake said...

I just seen a commercial on TV!! wow what is this world coming to?
I gotta to start some green movement al gore scam.
If you send me money I swear I will use my AC and PS3 less.
hey, if you can't beat em, join em!

Anonymous said...

The only people who will be fooled by this are the same people who blindly follow the dogma of say David suzuki, fruit fly biologist and ,google it, people are maggots. So I for one dont really care that these dummies get fleeced
as their rediculous dogma is stuffing down higher energy costs to those of us who do not subscribe to these religious fanatics

Anonymous said...

I was just listening to the same advertisement on CKNW and thought "What is this C---? I am so glad that I looked into this as I was beginning to succumb to ad rage when this idiot came on saying how he would love to pay more for power !!! I am relieved to know I am not alone. Keep up the good work out there.

Anonymous said...

The average consumer is only willing to pay for the Electicity that is delivered to their homes."Green energy" has been talked about for years and if you want to Donate to these companies it is your choice to do so. But to those that do,your light bulb will still glow at the same colour temperature as mine!!

Anonymous said...

Obviously we have to do something to go greener in Canada. I don't know how credible Bullfrog is though. I for one would be willing to put a wind powered turbine on my land. I'm sad to say I live in Alberta where we live in the dark ages and use a retarded amount energy and freshwater to extract tar sands oil. We also destroy pristine Boreal forest and make toxic lakes that leak into our water table. Yet our government spends most of its money on defending this environmental disaster!

David S said...

Humans are sadly very much like parasites. Some much smarter and better informed than others.Sadly pessimism is as easy as writing down ignorant rants. I Understand what Bullfrog power is doing and i think the important element is that they are doing it! That being a fact i would suggest that they would have some credibility or they are incredible scam artists? Nigerian? i don't think so. In this debate i think the Bullfrog rep makes clear points on what the business model is and has backed it up with very legitimate intel. My only input to this would be to suggest that there is a role for government ministries as tedious, glutinous and corrupt as they might be.

Anonymous said...

I work as an independent contractor for an energy retailer. (not bullfrog power). and the energy retailers have their own ways of making electricity (90% hydro and 10% wind). they just send this energy to let's say BC Hydro to send to the customer. Companies like BC Hydro are only distributors. But the money that Bullfrog is asking is too high to pay. the market price of hydro is currently 3.4c/kwh and if you want full green power its only 3 cents more ... they are overcharging with the 8.9 c/kwh. it will be cheaper to use the smart meters.

Cassandra said...

Hey I have an idea...


I'm sure they'd be more than happy to answer your ignorant questions. I dislike people who rant about stuff they have no concept of. It's not a good way to make loyal readers.

Anonymous said...

What answers do you think you will get from BULLFROG? Cassandra. Peolple are just curious whether or not this is a scam. Your comments clearly indicate that you are the ignorant one. They are a business making money off of somthing that makes people feel good. Bullfrog is a marketer not a generator so they purchase at the lowest price they can and charge you a premium to make you feel good.

Anonymous said...

Bullfrog Power IS a generator of electricity. They have wind turbines and "inject" the electricity that they produce into the existing power grid. Please try to get your facts straight before you accuse others of being ignorant.
If you are a customer of Bullfrog Power, the amount electricity that you used is placed onto the grid. It is not the point to have those particular electrons find their way to your house since you paid Bullfrog Power... the point is that they are coming from a cleaner source. The more energy that comes from clean sources the better off we will all be.

Anonymous said...

The wind is not blowing today and the hydro units are not generating, are your lights still on. You speak as though you know all the facts, I beg to differ.

Anonymous said...

I think its funny, the childish banter that is going on in this post. The problem with children is that they don't reason and gather facts. Clearly, most of the pundits are from BC cause here in Ontario, power is a lot more expensive. Many companies and consumers are paying more by choice because these green technologies require a large investment. The SVP was kind enough to give you some information to chew on but you probably didn't check it out. Maybe you personally are not getting the green power but nationally and bullfrog power is here in Ontario too, if enough people pay for greener power, their will be no need for the other stuff plus over time it will be cheaper. The other stuff is only getting more and more expensive with time.

Anonymous said...

Finally someone from the center of the universe to educate all the ignorant children. You do raise some good points, but don't think that you are aware of all the facts around energy supply and demand in the electrical grid as it is today. I am all for green power but at this time it is not reliable enough to replace fossil fuels. Bullfrog is not the answer it is a marketing outfit looking for one thing PROFIT. We need something tangible such as incentives to install solar and wind generation at our homes and properties. Even with these types of things we will still need fossil fueled generation to meet the demands of todays customer. Don't accuse others of not knowing the facts when you yourself do not have a good grasp of what it takes to operate a reliable electrical grid. Which I can assure you most people take for granted including yourself. But hey what do I know I am still in kindergarden.

not so dumb in Ontario said...

the response 2 above is obvioulsy from bull frog co. wind get cheaper in the end??? how gullible do they think we are? ask the europeans about how 'cheap' it is...the ones that have been using it for years before thing that i havent seen anyone address and i dont expect it will be accessible on BF's website, is the books. Lets see how much of these green dollars go intt the CEO and the SVP's pockets annually and how much is "injected" (who are they trying to impress with that incorrect term??) back into the infrastructure. to sum it up in one word...SNAKEOIL

Anonymous said...

In Ontario Bullfrog power through Enbridge Gas and other companies are trying to convince consumers to pay about $7200.00 (includes energy audit & taxes) for a solar powered water heating system. Talk about a scam, in my particular case I use about $10.00 (includes gas supply, delivery etc.) a month to heat my water with a 75 Gal. conventional natural gas water heater.

My estimate just on payback of the initial system cost alone at the current gas rates is 60 years($7200.00 divided by $120.00 annual water heating gas cost)and does not include the costs of operating my heater as a backup which is required in our winter months and in general to be sure you do not run out of hot water. So set aside the prohibitive investment in equipment and labour (which in most cases should be at least half the cost they are charging)I am only going to save at best a minimal $80.00 on my average water heating costs a year. So my savings on the operation over the 20 year expected lifetime of the system is $1600.00 and again that is at current gas rates and not including what the required maintenance costs will be. So I would lose more than $5600.00 in this venture and have to replace the system. I guess you would have to have water heating costs of more than $400 a year to break even on the investment alone over 20 years and $800 a year to make it a more reasonable 10 year pay off but again you also are still paying for your backup water heater as well. This is a system best suited for the southern U.S. and how can anybody in their right mind fall for this in a Canadian climate?

Of course they push the idea of reducing your carbon footprint which relates to greedily increasing their bank accounts. If I reduce my carbon footprint anymore I would be living in a grass hut. My yearly natural gas costs (heat and water heating) for my 3200 sq. ft. home are $465 for September 2009 to August 2010. My hydro is on average only 17 KWH a day at an average of 7 cents per KWH as I am not on Time of Use billing yet. So 365 X 17 = 6205 KWH per year at a cost of $434.35 per year for hydro used. This does not include delivery and all the bulls#$t charges added to the bill like the debt retirement fee from the old Ontario Hydro. They irresponsibly spent our tax dollars like a bunch of drunken sailors. This put themselves into a huge debt that we will be paying back what seems like forever.

Well I have finished ranting for the day

Anonymous said...

I understand the concept of Bullfrog power, and it works to a degree. The only problem is that if you divert a percentage of 'dirty' power to 'clean' power, you're no longer running the 'dirty' power plants at full capacity, where they are most efficient. Thus, injecting clean power into the grid just makes dirty power even dirtier.

Kind of a win-lose-lose...

Anonymous said...

We should all just move to Germany. They're a decade ahead! It's depressing that Canada can't up their game.

Anonymous said...

I attended a Bullfrog Power presentation. We asked the presenter how much of the 2 cents per kwh went to supporting Green power and how much went to marketing and profit. He side stepped the question and told us to review their audit on their web site which I did. As I suppected the audit told me nothing and did not answer the only question that would help convince me Bullfrog may not be a scam.

Anonymous said...

I've been looking into Bullfrog versus Quartus Technologies Any comments? Any would be appreciated.

Anonymous said...

I find it amusing that some individuals here seem to think that because Bullfrog Power has a profit motive that they are a scam. I'm not an expert, but Bullfrog power ISN'T a 'not-for-profit' and it is naive to think they they are not trying to maximize profit like every other business on the planet.
In my opinion, the Canadian federal government has failed to take the initiative on providing clean power to consumers so naturally private enterprise has stepped in. There aren't many companies like bullfrog so they possess a certain amount of monopoly power which is inherently bad for the consumer, but any company that can use the free market to convince (or 'fool', if there are still people here who are convinced that using bullfrog power does not help fund various new sustainable power initiatives at the very least) consumers to invest in green power is already ahead of our short sighted government.
The path to progress is rarely a magical superhighway, it is rather a network of roads and crossings moving towards a goal on the horizon. Bullfrog, however imperfect you might assess them to be, is a road in this network, and as long as new roads are being built with a focus on the horizon, we will progress. Unfortunately, our government isn't in the road building business.
Too philosophical for you? Investment and diversification into alternate sources of energy is logical, economical, and essential to ensuring a reliable and sustainable energy supply in the long term. To ignore this fact is to not only ignore the needs of the environment, but also to ignore common sense. Timidity in investing in these alternatives is both costly and cowardly.

Anonymous said...

Unfortunately, bullfrog power tugs on the heart strings of canadians and leads people to believe that they are the power providers. However, by the time an explanation is actually given, you are already signed up.

Might I add, that while windfarms may not burn fossil fuels or emit carbons in to the atmosphere, they are responsible for thousands of wildlife deaths every year. More so than the tailing ponds in Ft.MacMurray.

This is another act of corporate greed. Running an eco-friendly business has been challenging for me, and paying extra to a bullshit company that has no proof or ability to personally prove to you that you are getting your power offset by so called "Green Energy" disgusts me. At least enmax has the balls to offer solar panels to it's customers and you know you're actually using "green energy".

I've for one think Bullfrog powers days of lying and greed should come to an end. Justice will be served. Report them to the BBB and your local MLA. Lets bring down the scam artists!

Unknown said...

Ron Seftel and a few others have done a decent job at explaining the cost and benefits offered by Bullfrog. I support Bullfrog Power because it's logical in terms of the intersetcion point of the market and the environment, and it's moral in terms of valuing the future over a few dollars in my own pocket.

Anonymous said...

It seems you have missed the concept of how the company operates. It is not bull*&%^ in the least. Though the power you purchase from Bullfrog is indistinguishable from the rest of the power in the grid, by purchasing from them, you are ensuring that the equivalent amount of power you purchase is fed into the grid from renewable sources only.

By the way, all power companies operate on the same basis since it is all fed into the same grid, and since electricity is electricity and does not vary in quality. Selecting who you purchase from just allows them to feed more power into the grid from whatever power generation facilities they operate. Purchasing from BC Hydro means that BC Hydro will increase their production accordingly and feed it inot the grid. Bullfrog operates only renewable energy generation facilities. The more power customers purchase through Bullfrog, the more they will increase their renewable generation capacity.

It's a customer voluntary system to pay more for clean energy. The more people who are willing to pay the premium for renewable power,the more renewable power will be generated into the grid. Simple as that. By the way, the "premium" is only about $1 per day, and the difference between renewable and conventional electricity will gradually decrease as the renewables industries mature and as conventional producers become more accountable for the environmental degradation they are causing.

Anonymous said...

There are many benefits to our industrialized lifestyle, but our use of energy is also harming the world. Paying a small part of my wages to make energy production cleaner appeals to me. I think Bullfrog Power is a sensible idea, so I signed up.

Grant G said...

BC`s power is 98% clean hydro power..

Bullfrog is a scam in BC


Anonymous said...

Power from wind and solar installations is a scam being forced on everyone by those who think that the technology really is green.

Ponder these points:
Wind and solar farms are being built by companies all over the world for the purpose of siphoning off the huge subsidies offered. In most cases, they would not have been built without governent assistance.

Hydro, natural gas and coal plants need to be on standby to supplement wind power when there is no wind. They are less efficient on standby. Zero coal or natural gas plants have been decommissioned as a result of wind or solar projects.

Do some internet searches and you will find lots of evidence of health problems and bird collisions due to wind turbines.

Wind turbines are being erected in previously pristine areas, prime farmlands and bird flyways. In many cases, local municipalities have no say in where they are built. If there are trees at the base, they are clearcut. Huge concrete bases are needed to support the towers. Roadways are built for maintenance. Each wind turbine is an environmental disaster in its own right.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for green power but massive wind and solar installations are not the answer. We need to get away from the big power companies, investment companies and scams like Bullfrog power.

Calling something green does not make it true. Its not green if it causes harm to people, wildlife or the environment.

Companies need to be encouranged if they can deliver technologies reduce our reliance on the grid.

Run away from Bullfrog power. They are assisting in creating what could become one of the biggest environmental disasters the world has ever known.

Anonymous said...

Cats kill more birds a year than wind turbines do.

Anonymous said...

"They are assisting in creating what could become one of the biggest environmental disasters the world has ever known."

Wow. Some people...

I suggest the skeptics of Bullfrog stop being selfish and start thinking about future generations. Please educate yourself, a documentary called "Revolution" just came out but I highly recommened a book called "The Crash Course: The Unsustainable Future Of Our Economy, Energy, And Environment". Wake up people, we're destroying our planet and we're running out of cheap energy. At least this company is trying to do something about it.

Anonymous said...

This company is not doing anything about it other the making you pay double... Think about it .. Who pays for those windmills ... Tax payers... So right there Us the tax payer are the ones making All these companies able to use those green energies and now after you tax dollars have already paid for the power source this company is going to charge you more for the power your tax dollars have already paid for ... So What is this company really doing other then making you pay for something you have already paid for ... Of course all welfare bums are not part of this equation ;)